Metrics: Only 1300 of us?

Aurora
21

At least it was very clear in the beginning: Bluefin (and I guess the rest of UB) isn’t trying to get the other “classic” Linux users. Try to read Reddit or some forums and shiver.

I must say that there’s a funnier part when there’s a random user saying “those immutable systems are trying to resolve a problem that doesn’t exist”. Next to these messages, there’s someone heavily messing with repositories, broken updates and so on. Yeah, a problem that doesn’t exist.

Universal Blue and its projects are simply working, and eventually it’ll go much better over time in terms of number of users. It’s definitely the first time since 2000s that my OS updates without really breaking, and I want to stay that way.

5 Likes
22

I must say that there’s a funnier part when there’s a random user saying “those immutable systems are trying to resolve a problem that doesn’t exist”. Next to these messages, there’s someone heavily messing with repositories, broken updates and so on. Yeah, a problem that doesn’t exist.

Yeah, the hypocrisy is definitely there! One thing about bootc distros like ublue is how easily they handle major release upgrades.

I finally pulled the trigger on upgrading my Debian Bookworm server to Trixie. (I usually wait for the first point release after major upgrades, which came out on Saturday.)

Let’s just say “smooth” was not the outcome. I have a vanilla setup, and apt broke about 25% into the upgrade with a missing libcrypto shared object file. After fixing that, I was able to finish and reboot, but then SDDM was broken and had to be reinstalled. Wayland also failed due to NVIDIA DRM and modsetting issues. I’m wondering what else is quasi broken that I’ll run into over time after what happened on Saturday.

At work my Linux sysadmin friends (I’m not on their team) have a policy of doing reinstalls when major RHEL upgrades take place because they don’t trust upgrades.

I have a VM running with silver blue rawhide that I purposely wait at least a month before applying the latest image because I’m insane and I wanna see if I can break it lol. I’ve never had an issue where it didn’t upgrade correctly.

I should not have to pray when upgrading. I don’t have to on ublue images.

3 Likes
23

These numbers don’t reflect how good Aurora and Bluefin are. It’s a reflection of how unknown they are.

People don’t know Linux. When they Google which distro to use, they find Ubuntu, maybe Mint. And they might read sth about Debian, Arch.

Thats it.

To make people aware of something as new (and next-gen, which makes it hard for the techie influencers out there to grasp), you might need some marketing budget.. or request the big tech sites to write about you –> Maybe after the next GTS release (of Bluefin, not sure if Aurora also has it) that could be a good moment to start pushing this.

1 Like
24

I agree, my system didn’t break for months, and that’s one of the reasons I moved a few people to UB. Now, they’re free to experiment with packages and configurations without fear of causing any damage. Before, almost everyone told me that they almost avoided using their machines because they were afraid of breaking something, as if it were handling explosives.

3 Likes
26

Regarding immutability…

First, I am a very happy bluefin user, however it is categorized. I started out with Fedora Worstation about two and a half years ago. Was happy with it for a short while. Then one day I did something system related and the system started acting erratic. Could never figure it out and had to do a complete reinstall. It was frustrating to say the least.

Then I discovered Silverblue and the whole idea of atomic distros and immutability. Reading a bit more about those concepts, I discovered universal blue/ bluefin and the very new Vanilla OS. Decided to give both of them a go. Vanilla was not my thing. Bluefin definitely was. And since that first bluefin install, I’ve never looked back.

Now, regarding this categorization of silverblue/univeral blue, and other types of similar distros as immutable. I had no idea this concept was such a bone of contention.

I consider myself an average user. Nuanced distinctions are good and valid for more advanced users/experts. It’s like any discipline where essential and clear distinctions are necessary. However, for the average user, such distinction are “in the weeds” and are not helpful. Popular science is probably the quintessential example where compromises have to be made between accuracy and communication.

Unfortunately, I believe “immutable” is a concept like that, which now has name-recognition with the larger population–whether we like it or not. And, speaking as an average user, I’m ok with that. As long as we’re clear about what it means.

So, out of curiosity, I did a google search on “What is an immutable distro?” The AI Overview came back with what I believe is a pretty good definition and description that I think a lot of folks would nod in agreement with. I know I do. It fits what I’ve thought an immutable OS means, and does it succintly.

image

image622×800 132 KB

If “immutable” is not a good or preferred name for that set of characteristics, I’m open to anything better suited.

In the meantime, it seems like this would make for an acceptable working defintion and talking points on what “immutable” means for a popular audience (and when recommending Aurora/Bazzite/Bluefin to our non-techie family/friends). Knowing full well that experts will very likely disagree with it.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

2 Likes
27

I had no idea this concept was such a bone of contention.

I don’t think it’s contentious, the people who make the thing name it and we’ve been pretty clear since the beginning. I’m picky about it because all ya’ll are doing is packing our help channels with confused people who are going in circles because they think this stuff is important.

And we continuously have to correct them to get them going on the right path.

I disagree that the larger population talks about this. I only ever hear a subset of Linux users talking about this, not average users. If you’re mentioning this stuff to family and friends then you’re just going to confuse them. Does the android person at the phone store talk about this to your family or do they talk about the actual features of the phone?

As per the previous four years of discussions, the correct term for our images is “container images” or you can just use “cloud native” to describe them since that term is already established.

1 Like
28

Personally I like “container images” better because “cloud” seems vague and overloaded by a lot of people. That’s just me though.

3 Likes
29

Hmmm, when people refer to an immutable distro, they’re talking about a system that has a read only base system, atomic updates (with rollback), and primarily (or exclusively) containerized applications.

That describes ublue.

When people refer to a Linux distro, or if someone looks at the Wikipedia entry, ublue definitely qualifies as a distro.

Bazzite, Aurora, and Bluefin are immutable Linux distros. The fact that they are themselves containers, and use bootc, doesn’t change that.

I’d much rather recommend people use Bluefin (which I do, quite regularly) without having to tell them that it’s not a distribution, and also that it’s not immutable, even though it fits EXACTLY what they are expecting with those two words.

3 Likes
30

Why would you tell them that in the first place? You can just recommend Bluefin without any of that. Talk about the applications and features of the product!

EDIT: Someone describe a person that they’re installing Bluefin for and I’ll tell you how I would pitch it without any of this jargon.

31

Here’s a mundane example. My older brother has been dissatisfied with the long-term stability of his Arch install, and asked me what Linux distro I would suggest trying. I know he prefers the GNOME DE.

I tell him, “Bro, Bluefin is the best GNOME distro I’ve ever used.” Truth.

He knows that that means. I know what that means. When he downloaded the ISO and installed it, he understood that he was getting a fairly complete OS that included a kernel, CLI tools, something like X or Wayland, networking management, a login system, etc…

He then asked me, after he could not drop a theme file (or something - I don’t remember exactly) into /usr somewhere, if this was an “immutable Linux distro” like he had been reading about.

Now, what should I have said here? Should I have told him that, first of all, it’s not a distro even though it conforms to the description exactly. Second, it’s not immutable, even though it, again, conforms to that description exactly. Should I also tell him that it’s not Linux at all, but rather GNU/Linux?

If we’re talking to people who have never tried Linux before, or are coming from MacOS or a Chromebook or something - maybe, MAYBE, for them the idea of a “distribution” is arcane-speak. But even then, this concept has entered mainstream computing. People who work with servers know about RHEL. Gamers know about SteamOS. I think it’s a totally safe word to use for the general computing public.

And if we’re talking about people who “distro-hop” a bit before they settle in (many new users do this), the word “immutable” has entered the common lexicon with a common set of expectations that the ublue images match pretty darn well. In fact, they’re probably the BEST instantiation of those expectations (which is why I like spreading the good news about them).

But telling people not to use the words “immutable” or “distribution/distro” in this context is like telling someone never to refer to the number 6, but instead only refer to “one third of 25, rounded down to the nearest integer”. :slight_smile:

1 Like
32

Yeah this is where I would start.

This isn’t the right place for a theme file on any linux. Sure the traditional distros will let you get away with this but these instructions are incorrect. This is one of those cases where the user was protected from an antipattern. This is fine and expected.

I would just say something like:

You use GNOME right? Every cool new thing that is announced by GNOME you will have access to very quickly. And you will always have access to the very latest that the GNOME ecosystem has to offer. Every awesome app mentioned on the gnome newsletter, /r/gnome, omgubuntu, etc. You will always have access to the latest versions of those apps the same day they are announced. And you’ll always have the latest GNOME, you will always be in the front of the pack.

That’s what we offer, we don’t design our OS around out of date blog posts. :smiley: We design around the upstream documentation.

This is a place where the official documentation is probably better than a general internet search.

Does anyone have a list of common set of expectations that people expect from “immutable” and why it needs to be a special list?

33

Yep. There are quite a few articles that discuss immutable distros, both pro and con. While none of them give a definition with complete necessary and sufficient conditions, they all describe these features:

  1. Read-only filesystem except for /var and parts of /etc.
  2. System updates are atomic. They either happen completely, or the system is unchanged. Typically the user will reboot into the new update. Easy rollback into previous working system.
  3. Applications are containerized. Flatpak, Snap, AppImage are the primary methods, though Docker/Podman/Nix for some system services (or developer environments) also available. See Distrobox, etc…

I could link to a whole host of articles and sites, but there’s no need. This is what people mean when they refer to a distro as “immutable”. While there are some distros that don’t quite fit (like NixOS, for example), I don’t see how Bluefin’s membership in this set is ambiguous.

1 Like
34

Right. Because there’s no reason to, let’s go over it:

Read-only filesystem except for /var and parts of /etc.

Normal client linux, android did this, my roku does this, different method, no reason for me to care. Most Linuxes on the planet are this way it’s not special. Linuxes that aren’t this way are the outlier.

System updates are atomic.

Reliable operating systems do this, OSes that don’t do this are broken. Call them out as broken this isn’t a new category.

Applications are containerized.
This is what people mean when they refer to a distro as “immutable”

Containerized applications are normal on linux. This is just the same normal cloud native pattern since 2015 or so. This terminology has been around already, there’s no need to make up the term “immutable”, we refer to our systems as cloud native specifically and for a reason. Just because the desktop is behind doesn’t mean we invent new words and patterns, we’re just aligning with everyone else.

While there are some distros that don’t quite fit (like NixOS, for example)

I don’t see how NixOS has anything to do with this, other than being a Linux it has no relation to Bluefin. :slight_smile:

1 Like
35

Yea Nix is…there really isn’t anything quite like it.